Thank God for Weasel Chuck Schumer’s mouth. Listen to him approve of torture techniques in 2004.
We ought to be reasonable about this. I think there are probably very few people in this room or in America who would say that torture should never ever be used, particularly if thousands of lives are at stake. Take the hypothetical — if we knew that there was a nuclear bomb hidden in an American city, and we believe that some kind of torture, fairly severe maybe, would give us a chance of finding that bomb before it went off? My guess is most Americans and most Senators, maybe all, would say “do what you have to do”. So its easy to sit back in the armchair and say that torture can never be used, but when you’re in the foxhole it’s a very different deal. – Senator Chuck Schumer
h/t: ReThinkTheGOP
I was in the US NAVY SEALS FROM 1977 TO 1999,, We not only got waterboarded we were tear gased, made to carry a telephone pole around for hours, made to carry a safe boat while being spread with water, thrown out in the middle of the ocean without a safe boat…. And the democrats complain about treating terrorist the wrong way..Give me a break..
Torture should NEVER become “policy,” but I would lean more to Schumer’s rationalization. While I’m certain torture has ALWAYS been and will ALWAYS be used, secretly or openly… under the ABSOLUTE most extreme case, I could certainly understand using whatever method will get the best results within any specific time frame. However, if it becomes policy, we start down a VERY slippery slope. At what point does torture become just plain wrong? Is there some degree of danger that any individual must present before they become a candidate for “whatever method works?”
The one MAJOR issue I have with the idea of officially sanctioned torture is where these lines get drawn and just WHO does the drawing of this line? Just like capitol punishment, I can see where a person’s crimes can be so heinous and blatantly obvious that I really have no problem with the death penalty. But there are and will always be times where a totally innocent person can be found guilty and sentenced to death. If torture is mere policy, I can easily foresee MAJOR abuses becoming the normal for the day.
I don’t want torture to become “policy” either… and apparently neither did the Bush Administration who only used waterboarding on three people. But the problem with it not being “policy” is exactly what we are experiencing now — people approved of it behind closed doors when the threat was immediate, and as time passes they forget the threat and reverse course to score political points.
In my mind, it should never be policy… but if the threat is serious enough that the powers that be deem it necessary, it should never become public. Unfortunately, as long as there are people in Washington putting their political ambition above our country… that will never happen.
BEING A VIETNAM ERA VETERAN,USAF 1970-1973, I ONLY WISH AMERICANS WOULD LEARN FROM PAST EXPERIENCE. THE PHOENIX PROGRAM(PROJECT) CONDUCTED IN SOUTH VIETNAM, KILLED AND TORTURED THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT VIETNAMSE, SUPPOSEDLY FOR INTELLIGENCE PURPOSES, BUT ACTUALLY WAS JUST A PERVERTED PUNISHMENT PROGRAM, FOR MANY UNFORTUNATE PERSONS IN THE WRONG PLACE(COUNTRY), AT THE WRONG TIME. DOES THIS SOUND FAMILIAR. OH, WHAT HAPPENED TO FORMER CIA DIRECTOR WILLIAM COLBEY WHO RAN THE PROGRAM; HE DROWNED BY ACCIDENT ? EVERY TORTURE TECHNIQUE MADE LEGAL AND USED OVERSEAS BY COUNTRIES, HAS AND WILL BE USED WITHIN IT’S OWN COUNTRY, ON ITS OWN PEOPLE EVENTUALLY. JUST LOOK AT NAZI GERMANY AS HISTORICAL PROOF.
David, from what I’ve read, I’m not sure its fair to compare the Phoenix Program to waterboarding three terrorists… but I’ll leave that to you and people to research on their own. I’m also not sure comparisons to that and what Nazi Germany did are fair either… but there are slippery slopes, and in a number of ways we are drifting down them.
Regardless, debate and involvement is good. We all need to learn more about what is going on and take an active role in the process.
David, Investment, and anyone else here who is a veteran — Thank you for your service to our country. Your perspective on what has happened and what it means is certainly more complex than mine… and I appreciate the ability to discuss it while enjoying the freedoms your service insured.
Like the SEAL I to have been waterboarded during Pre-deployment training in 1973 during my 20 years 1 month and 17 days in Special Forces, I thinh people who have not been there and have not done That should ask those who have or keep their mouth colsed.
For or against torture…….we must each come to terms with our rationale.
My problem is, while it needs to be discussed, it is not being discussed
honestly by the Dems. Schumer is an idiot and should be being investigated
for his “money trail” so his opinion does not influence me one way or the other.
I’ve commented on this on other web sites. They should be glad I didn’t define torture. Let me describe things I would use. Keep in mind they would not be in any danger, they only would think and feel like they were. I would first put them in a totally dark confined space sitting facing one direction, there would be a transparent partition with some thing like rattle snakes or some other critter that might frighten them on the other side. First you agitate them to make them start make noise then turn a light on just long enough for them to see the critters then quickly turn it off so they can’t see that they are not in danger. The worst I would do is put a sweet syrup on them tie them next to a some fire ants. Of course I would have medical test done before hand to insure they are not going to die from the a ant bite. Fire ants are not venomous but their bites are painful, and they will chew at and eventual eat or carry off dead things. Some out there will say what about Geneva convention? If we were dealing with a uniformed service member of a recognized country with a government then all these things are illegal. However anyone captured not wearing a uniform, have no ID showing them that they are a service member, and are not even a citizen of the country where we captured them are spying and can be held without any charges.
To Maj. Holton and Investment, and others:
The problem with this torture, as is becoming evident as more facts come out, is that it wasn’t used exclusively for the “ticking bomb” scenerio. There is proof that it was used, on orders from the V.P,’s office, to try to make an after the fact link between al-Queda and Iraq. That is criminal, and should be prosecuted.
As for all you tough guys who have claim to have been waterboarded, I ask this question. At any time, did you think your instructors would let you die? As a firefighter, I attended and passed a torturous”Smoke Divers” course that pushed men to the limits, including potential life threatening situations in oxygen deprived environments and tempertures to 1200 degrees, where my air supply was disconnected and visibilty was zero. in spaces so tight you had to remove your air pack and push it in front of you in total darkness. Still, I knew in the back of my mind that the men running the training would not let me die. Having to face those types scenes later in real life, I know there is a huge difference. You know it too.
Mike – Its easy years after the fact to say that no “ticking bomb” scenario existed… but that doesn’t mean the people involved at the time didn’t believe it to be true.
Politicians trying to score political points need to recuse themselves from this debate, or progress will never be made. Pelosi and Schumer’s comments to date prove that. Until Washington stops using this issue to gain political advantage, we will never know the whole truth about what happened or why, nor will we ever have a serious debate on the merits of the practice at hand.
We have not been attacked. Only 3 individuals have been waterboarded! Since records exist relating to their waterboarding, I think it is reasonable to assume that it was very rarely used.
I will not complain that we were not attacked because “torture” was used to obtain information and prevent attacks.