Representative Joe Wilson (R – SC) shouted “You Lie!” at President Barack Obama last night, causing am uproar on Capitol Hill and online. Most called for Wilson to apologize, others on Twitter and elsewhere called for him to be censured or even to resign. While I don’t believe the House chamber is the appropriate place to call someone a liar, it certainly didn’t stop Barack Obama from doing the same from the podium. And the President was in fact lying when he made the statement about illegal immigrants that Joe Wilson responded to. As for my friends on the left who try to find moral equivalence with every issue, I don’t remember much outrage from the left over Democrats’ comments and boos at President George W. Bush just a few years ago.
The fact is, President Obama’s speech contained a number of distortions and some outright lies. Representative Joe Wilson was just having the same vocal outburst that many Americans, like myself, were having at home. Its hard to watch the President continually paint the opposition as lying when he is in fact the one ignoring the truth. And after the President and his surrogates have painted you as “un-American” and liars, what kind of response to you expect?
Joe Wilson has apologized for his outburst. Will President Obama apologize for his lies?
Additional Note: I do believe the Office of the President and the House Chamber deserve civility and respect. Both Joe Wilson AND Barack Obama should remember that.
HB 3200 SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.
Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.
Turbocoupe,
Do you just spread talking points? I KNOW WHAT HR3200 SAYS. But have you read this (which was linked in the article where I said Obama was lying)?
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/08/28/congressional-research-office-obamacare-will-cover-illegal-immigrants/
I support Joe Wilson. I am sick and tired of the duplicity of our government and her institutions. Which is more important? Style over substance? Decorum over truth?
Why is it we Republicans must observe civility in the face of blatant LIES but the Dems for last 8 years threw every conceivable invective against Bush and the Right.
No, I don’t agree with your contention that “I don’t believe the House chamber is the appropriate place to call someone a liar”. Why not? A lie is a lie and it should be called out wherever it rears its ugly head.
Rick,
The President was wrong and Joe Wilson was doing what many Americans were doing at home. You can’t really fault Joe Wilson for his response considering the attacks President Obama was lobbing at the opposition. Still, I don’t want to see the House Chamber take a similar course as Parliament in the UK. Some civility and respect from ALL THOSE in attendance would be nice. Of course it is the President’s job to lead, and if he is going to lie from the podium, he can’t be shocked when people call him out on it.
I wish the outburst hadn’t happened, and it wouldn’t have happened if Barack Obama would start telling the truth.
I must say that I think that Congressmen Wilson had every right to say what he said and should be applauded for it!! It’s about time Republicans stop giving us socialism-lite and start honoring their oath to the Constitution!! If we had Representative who had balls maybe they would have shouted down the President until he left the Chamber because of his unAmerican and unConstitutional policies!! America needs to return to a Constitutional form of government and not this crap both parties are giving us right now!!
Thanks Joe….Keep watching our backs….
One Joe Wilson gets called upon to serve his nation by researching a request of the VP regarding a matter of national security importance. For his effort and truth-telling, he has his wife outed illegally as a covert CIA operative by members of the VP’s office. Another Joe Wilson screams out whatever insolent BS comes into his mind at the President of the US in a formal address to a joint session of Congress and you qualify/defend his idiocy. Methinks your values are more than a tad out of whack.
John, the fact that you would even compare the sniveling weasel and virtually traitorous Joe Wilson of Valerie Plame fame with Representative Joe Wilson is laughable. The only thing those two have in common is they both have more intellectual fortitude than you. Other than that, only one of those two men ever served their nation, and it wasn’t Valerie Plame’s husband.
Your deep seated desire to play in the sandbox with the big kids when you have nothing of substance to offer and no understanding of the actual issues is pathetic. At this point not surprising, but pathetic nonetheless.
I guess its ok for the President to lie continuously from this podium, and everyone is just supposed to keep their mouth shut. Whatever troll.
AmericanElephant,
While I agree to disagree, let me ask how can we be civil when the opposition is uncivil? Civility HAS TO BE a two-way street. Turning the other cheek doesn’t work very well in politics, and we pubs have done that way too much for way too long.
I think it is time to go back to the discourse of politics that occurred in the 18th and 19th centuries. Maybe a few canings would be good (just kidding) but nonetheless we should call a spade a spade AND NOT a diamond. Bottom line, if the opposition can dish it out, then they should be able to dish it in!!!
Lomg story short: while the bill technically states that illegal immigrants will not be allowed to get government healthcare, there is nothing in the bill that will stop them from getting it. There are no provisions that require participants prove their citizenship.
It’s fun to be criticized from the left and the right on the same post. What does that make me, John McCain?
God, I hope not.
Rick, I totally agree Republicans need to “grow a pair” and start standing up for us and our principles. And as my title implies and my post suggests, I did the same thing that Joe Wilson did. I just wasn’t in the House Chamber at the time. I didn’t like it when the libs booed and moaned W. during his speeches, and I didn’t appreciate the Code Pink outbursts either. I have to try and be consistent.
Still, Joe Wilson’s outburst wouldn’t have happened if not for Barack Obama. Obama’s speech was full of lies, distortions and attacks. And I thank Joe Wilson for speaking for people like myself. I guess I just wish there was a better way. Sorry to ride the fence on this one… I hate it when others do the same. But again I don’t want to see our bodies of government resemble those in other lands. I always shake my head when I see the shouting in parliament or the melees in a host of other countries. We should be above that.
But as I said to one e-mailer recently, you can’t expect to punch someone and not get punched back. You are absolutely right, CIVILITY HAS TO BE A TWO-WAY STREET. The President promised to usher in an era of post partisan politics. It’s time he take the lead.
Joe Wilson proved he was a bigger man by apologizing. When will President Obama apologize for his lies?
Turbocoupe’s post was hardly “talking points” but rather language taken verbatim from HR3200, or actual fact.
AE seems to want to dismiss the facts with interpretation by suggesting the language is a “lie” because the “bill contains no verification requirement or enforcement process for citizenship or legal residency”. That’s a specious argument and leans more towards invented talking points than it does debunking the actual language;
Keep in mind that anyone falsifying documents are subject penalties and deportation.
Note that in section 156, the first line of that provision forbids discrimination “except as otherwise explicitly permitted by this act.” The bill could require illegal immigrants to buy coverage, but it clearly restricts subsidies to U.S. citizens and legal residents.
It absolutely is a talking point, a talking point that ignores the simple truth. If what you and President Obama says is true, why has every attempt to add strong language that would deny illegals access been denied? Why has every attempt to add enforcement been denied?
This issue has been talked to death. You can keep your head buried in the sand all you want, but just because the President said so does not make it true. As I have repeated before, I know what HR3200 says. I’ve read the freaking bill, have you? But I’ve also read more than that and followed more than just the Dem’s talking points and the President’s distortions. As written HR3200 will provide care for illegals because it does NOTHING to prevent it. All attempts to actually prevent it have been blocked by the liberals in control.
AmericanElephant,
I do understand where you are coming from, and you are correct in that civility and manners should be the rule rather than the exception, but exceptions happen and Obama is that exception. He is a pathological liar, narcissistic and arrogant. He assumes the American people are sheeple to be lead with lies and deceit. I believe it was Hitler’s propaganda minister, Joseph Goebbels who said “when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous”, (This is Obama and the Far-Left). Repeat often and it will be believed. I am sorry but I am adamant that when a blatant lie is being trumpeted by whatever politician or leader, they should be called on it.
When the President of the United States goes before the People’s representatives in a Joint Session of Congress, he should respect to whom he is addressing i.e. the very people who put him into office because presumably he can be trusted, but when he lies before that “august” body, he lies to us all and he should be called on it.
Bout time someone called it as they saw it without being scared. obama is just a man, nothing more, maybe less, but nothing more. When your government hears what the People are saying and ignores it and tries to sugar coat their B.S. even more; It’s time to rid of those in power and replace with new. We are a Republic mr. POTUS not a Democracy. Read your Constitution.
AE, I’m not sure how you deduce that legislative language is a talking point vrs creating theory from that language is fact.
There’s a lot of similarities in this and the “death panels” aka The Health Benefit Advisory Committee. HR3200 clearly states the HBAC’s role is to make recommendations about minimum standards of care and covered benefits that insurance companies have to offer–ensuring that everyone has a health plan that provides them with adequate coverage. Supporters of HR3200 say that there’s no such provisions that says the HBAC can come between the patient and the doctor. Opposition to HR3200 claim that since there isn’t any language stating that they cannot come between come between patient and doctor, that they can somehow bypass the three branches of government, take on super powers and responsibilities, and then determine treatment based on a person’s value to society.
So now the argument that “it’s in the bill” or “it isn’t in the bill” is a talking point and those that support fabricated theories are proven correct? Those that quote the bill are liars and have their heads in the sand?
Gee, you didn’t answer my questions and are instead pursuing some misdirection. I guess you follow your President well. The Death Panel thing has been discussed to death, as has this issue. You can continue to be a Lemming for the President, we’ll continue fighting for the truth.
I’ll answer your questions AE. To be quite honest, I haven’t looked into the debate about added enforcement assuring illegals don’t slip through the cracks. You mentioned Dems blocking attempts so if you have some HR #s pertaining to that, I’d gladly research it. Or even some particular Congress personal or topics would work. I have no idea what language may have been attached to those proposal (tort reform, etc,) that may have been unacceptable to Democrats. I think that we can both agree that both parties play a lot of political maneuvering in their bills and amendments. I’m not saying they were but at this point, I’m ignorant as to the exact House Bills you’re referring to. And your other question, yes I’ve read hr3200 in its entirety.
My death panel statement wasn’t meant to be a threadjack or to misdirect but rather a comparison. Like the illegal immigrant issue, the argument has no merit as it contradicts what’s actually in the bill.
Searching for the truth is fine and dandy but being in denial of the facts is a bit disturbing. Across the Internet, major media, hometown newspaper and radio stations, Wilson is being exposed as being wrong, or perhaps the liar. And the media just don’t want to let it go. The “end of life counseling” was originally written by the GOP. Yet when Obama mentioned “death panels” as being bogus, 4 GOP Senators applauded while the rest sat on their hands. Is this searching for the truth. It really has more of an appearance of promoting a lie until it’s excepted as truth. And Wilson by the way, in many households, barber shops, campuses, and workplace break rooms, raised that debate.
Andy,
It seems like Joe’s “You Lie!” comment is at least getting some action from the administration, which is now calling for proof of citizenship for treatment. If Joe was wrong, why did this happen??
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/09/11/2065287.aspx
See here for more:
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/09/11/senate-to-close-obamacare-loophole-for-illegal-immigrants-that-media-claims-doesnt-exist/
More on loopholes that were exposed in the Dem health care proposals that would have in fact allowed illegal immigrants to receive health care:
http://michellemalkin.com/2009/08/26/obamacare-for-illegal-aliens-revisited/
As for Democrats voting down amendments that would have actually enforced the illegal immigrant language:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090910/ap_on_go_co/us_illegal_immigrants_fact_check
By the way, I think you are wrong about the death panels too. The term “death panel” as used by Sarah Palin was certainly designed to incite a bit of fear, BUT AMERICANS SHOULD FEAR IT AND THE HEALTH CARE PLANS. We’ve written about it before and posted links to other’s more detailed assessments. But the bottom line is there is a panel created to assess care and treatments given by doctors. Obama himself has said sometimes we need to give grandma a pill instead of surgery. And there is a government incentive to save costs. Like it or not, that all leads to the rationing of care. Couple that with Obama adviser Ezekial Emanuel’s multiple writings on the topic (which I’ve also discussed multiple times here), and you will understand exactly where the “death panel” idea comes from and why ALL AMERICANS SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT THEM.
You can ignore all of the extraneous facts if you want to, but you do so at your own peril. While the term “death panel” might be a colorful term… there is real legitimate concern about government bureaucrats denying care for the elderly and the infirm, leading to someone other than her doctor deciding that grandma doesn’t deserve to live any longer. It already happens in other nations with government care. To think it somehow won’t happen here, with mounting evidence to the contrary, is a bit naive.
See More Here:
http://americanelephant.com/blog/elephant-watch/palin-resonds/
And Here:
http://americanelephant.com/blog/commentary/why-i-protest-obamacare/ (with multiple leaks to Dr. Emanuel’s thoughts on “communtarianism”)
Thanks AE for your civil rebuttal. I don’t have a great deal of time to review your links or respond to your post in it’s entirety but I’ll try to get back to you points after the weekend.
Briefly, since the bill is explicit in it’s language, that means those abusing it can be prosecuted. To what measure it’s enforced I can’t say. But it is there for watch dogs and whatever means the law wants to deal with it.
The problem with illegal immigrants is that our laws aren’t enforced at the boarder. These laws were clearly laid out by the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986. But they’re not being enforced. Reagan didn’t enforce them, nor did GWHB, Clinton, GWB, nor Obama. Each of these are as guilty as the other of not issuing an executive order to secure our boarders and enforce our laws. So why does a bill need additional language to enforce laws that no one’s going to enforce anyways? But the bill does secure the language that denies funding of illegal immigrants. So eventually, when someone does enforce the laws, the provision is there and can’t be discarded without congressional legislation.
I’ll concede that your argument has reasonable merit but it falls way short of a rationale that Obama “lied”. I welcome your constructive rebuttal.
I appreciate your concerns about HR3200 and although we will never likely agree ideologically, I do respect your fears of government involvement. But I think to justify fear mongering (which from your own admission is what “death panels” are) in order to make your sale, diminishes our freedom as a people. At what point is snake-oil salesmanship appropriate? Health care reform is a serious issue and has been a problem for years. The GOP, with all their historic power, did not address it. Reagan, GWHB, GWB passed it on. If you feel that health care is just fine the way it is, we are likely at a standstill. If you feel like most Americans that some form is needed, I welcome your suggestions on moving forward.
I’m not saying HR3200 can’t use tweaking. I’m just saying that fear mongering, town hall shout down, and distortions of the facts is not the American way.
Andy,
I did make a suggestion on how to fix health care, over two years ago. Read it here:
http://americanelephant.com/blog/i-can-fix-health-care/
And I won’t back off that Obama lied. He knows the language in HR3200 has no teeth and won’t be enforced. He knows his own party leaders blocked all efforts to enforce it. His statement in the speech just like the line in the bill is nothing but lip service to give them plausible deniability.
And while I admit that the term “death panel” is designed to wake people up and insight a bit of fear… the fear is very really and the idea is not a fabrication. Everyone likes sound bites in this 24hr news age, and the term “death panel” gets the point across a lot better than “government panels that choose whether or not you get coverage so grandma gets a life saving surgery or is told to take a pill”. Agree or not with her choice of words, it was effective, and the end-of-life care in some proposals has been adjusted since her comments. Additionally, she shed more light on a very threat that Americans need to understand and pay attention to.
AND, Dr. Emanuel did everything to suggest “death panels” other than actually calling them “death panels”. The idea is the same. Read my last link about why I oppose ObamaCare (or at least read the links about Dr. Emanuel that I sourced). The idea about “death panels” may construct different scary views for different people, but the words of Dr. Emanuel are very real. I didn’t even source all of it. You can google him for much more.
As for HR3200, I think the entire premise behind ALL OF THESE PLANS is flawed and don’t support anything on the table. Does health care need to be reformed? YES! But the answer is 180 degrees in the opposite direction. If you think the government is the answer to our problems, we will never agree. I firmly believe government IS the problem. Government was the problem in the mortgage industry that led to this collapse… they won’t do any better with health care.
We do agree on one thing… ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM. Clinton, GWB and now Obama fail us miserably here. GHWB wasn’t any better. Reagan at least tried, but that failed too. As long as the powers that be are more concerned with political power than protecting the nation, this will never change. They both are sacrificing our national security and sovereignty to try and lobby for votes. And it makes me sick.
FYI – Civil rebuttals follow civil comments. The two are inherently linked. I have no patience with drive-by comments that throw out some little link or line without any reasoning to back it up, ESPECIALLY WHEN I ADDRESSED THE ISSUE IN MY POST.
I’m can’t buy into the employer insurance theory. Employers, particularly Fortune 500s such as Proctor $ Gamble, GM, et al, have a lot more bargaining power than Joe Smuckatellie off the street. Also, I can’t see how average Joe making 50K a year can can just pick up an additional 10K insurance expense.
We seem stuck on an argument on legislative language not enforcing the law. The bill states the terms so I still say it’s enforceable. A directive can always be added to enforce the law but no directive to allow paying illegal immigrants can be added without congressional approval.
“Death Panels” are indeed sheer fabrication. There’s no truth to it and no language in HR3200 that can even remotely be taken out of context even imply it. You want to point at the infamous “take a pill” hypothetical that Obama mentioned. But what the youtube fails to mention is that Charles Gibson interjected with a comment on money that may not be available for a pacemaker. Obama answered with-
Pay close attention to that last sentence along with ““I don’t want bureaucracies making those decisions”.
Regardless of comments from Dr Emanuel, legislation is legislation. Once enacted, it just can’t be changed willy nilly because of some he said she saids. The bill is clear and it’s explicit. Death Panels are non existent. End of life counseling is at the patients request, not mandatory— and it never was. Soundbites are fine for selling something. Instilling a dash of fear (if there’s a reasonable connection) is ok too. But to use fabricated fear tactics that are outright lies is just wrong. And “death panels” and “mandatory” counseling are absolute lies. These are the same deceptive tactics used to take us to an unneeded war. These are the same dishonest tactics used to keep us there. And these outright lies are becoming the trademark of the GOP.
Andy,
The problem with health care is not the expense to companies, its the expense to the average person who can’t get it through their employers, they don’t have a job, or they have a pre-existing condition that prevents it. This happens because there is no motivation for the insurance company to provide care to the individual. Remove the employer based system, reform malpractice laws, and allow individuals to purchase insurance across state lines and you will see prices drop dramatically and the availability of coverage increase instantly.
As for HR3200, I find it funny that I keep linking to source after source, INCLUDING THE ADMINISTRATION because the language the bill regarding illegal immigrant was a joke, and you keep referring back to the bill. Then, in the same comment you talk about how border security laws are not enforced. Don’t you see you are being played? That one little line is in HR3200 to provide political cover. They have no intent on backing it up… if they did then the multiple proposals to add teeth to it would have passed. It was only after Joe Wilson spoke up that something actually got done (the administration admitted there was a problem).
It takes what, 1300 pages to write a health care bill and they spend a sentence or two saying the illegals won’t be covered? For the first time in the history in Washington they weren’t being verbose as they drafted the legislation? Please. Its political cover. We know it. The White House apparently knows it.
Illegal Aliens know it too. They had no problem marching on the street for amnesty last year, yet they are somehow silent when the President proposes they get no health care coverage? The special interest groups that back amnesty proposals are also backing these bills? Think they would be silent if their interest group wasn’t getting covered? They too know that illegals will be covered under ObamaCare. It seems like the only people who don’t know it are you and a few of the mainstream media outlets.
The same sentiment goes for the death panels. I’ve researched it, made multiple posts, linked to multiple sources. You don’t agree with any of them… fine. The fears are not a fabrication regardless of how often you want to say they are. Just look overseas and you’ll see the truth. Read the writings, you’ll see the truth. Listen to Obama’s own words in their entirety, and you’ll hear the truth.
We’re obviously not going to agree, so this might as well end here. If the thing passes, I pray to God you are right. But until then I will do everything in my power to stop it because I fear you are wrong.
Take Care.
[...] thing Pelosi and her ilk can point to from the opposition is Congressman Joe Wilson’s “You Lie!” outburst directed at President Obama who was at best being disingenuous and at worst [...]